the oxymoronic "intelligent argument"

... fight "for" something, not about it

Published on July 13, 2004 By mignuna In Personal Relationships

unless your intention is to deliberately malign and offend people, delivering your message in an unkind, aggressive or patronising way will not serve you well in this world. no matter how “wrong” someone or something may be, i am yet to see anybody converted to a cause by being ridiculed into it.

if what you believe in is important to you, then you owe it to yourself to make sure that your support of it doesn’t leave you blind to it's shortcomings, and to ensure that whatever you say in it's “defence” isn’t just thinly disguised condescension masquerading as “facts”.

take personally only what is personal. the involvement of emotionalism in our presentation of “facts” has long been the bane of human communication. most of us cannot bear to hear our carefully-formed views or well-researched beliefs/opinions bucketed with rubbish by somebody who just doesn’t know what we know.

yet in attempting to “correct” their “misconceptions”, our emotional commitment to what we know is right often takes the reins and turns a reasonable factual exchange into a personal mud-slinging farce.

practicing what you preach is an old-but-good example of a shortcut to gathering understanding, and eventually respect, for the things you deem important. desiring 100% agreement on the part of the world is demonstrating a one-way mindset. as is treating anybody that thinks differently than you as an “opponent”.

like it or not, there are people who are comfortable agreeing to disagree with you, and insistence will not make them “see the light”, it will more than likely just cement the opposing view they had to begin with, or possibly even exacerbate it.

fanaticism isn’t a good recruiter. being ruled by a belief and remaining deaf to all input will not foster a positive message about your views. you add nothing to an issue or belief by becoming a rampantly closed-minded supporter of it. you in fact actively detract from the opinion of your cause by mounting an aggressive or closed-minded stance in it’s "defence".

being a walking, talking ad for your values gives you a vehicle to demonstrate their relevance to, and effect on, you the person ... the person your values make you ... the person that is more of a positive advertisement for those values of yours than any comment you may make will ever be.

Comments

Theophilus Thistler

on Jul 13, 2004

Have to totally agree with you there. I was actually talking to some friends about people fully respecting (and possibly even believing) others beliefs just on the sole merit of their good example of practicing instead of preaching. Seeing is believing I suppose...

notsohighlyevolved

on Jul 13, 2004

i am yet to see anybody converted to a cause by being ridiculed into it.

With the sole exception of fashion, of course.

I will have to say, however, that this is all marvelous advice and should replace the ten commandments as the code for living, but what happens when you get really, really, really angry. Unkind, aggressive and patronising. Check, check and... check. After the nuclear winter has cleared i have almost always believed that I was right and they were wrong, whoever they might be. It might be years till i finally admit to myself that i was mistaken and taken (that double indignity), but i will always consider myself to be the better man for finally admiting to it, the sting of defeat (and i know that it shouldn't be an issue. blame testosterone and its competitive streak) lasts for only a fraction of a second before the warmth of concieted humility takes its place.

That is the elegent proficiency of emotion - not only can it get you into all sorts of trouble, it can invariably convince you that you are victorious when you are in fact, poor deluded fool, the egg in the middle of a pride sandwich .

Mig, I envy your common sense. I envy even more your grace in making common sense so inextricably yours.

Marco XX

Muggaz

on Jul 13, 2004

With the sole exception of fashion, of course.

Trucker hats are a prime example!

Mig, You are one of the Sage around here... I am not going to tell you how good this article is, because I can't really do it justice. Such profound wisdom. No one could possibly read that without a little enlightenment...

BAM!!!

Sally jacobs

on Jul 13, 2004

Mig you really are very wise, yes very VERY wise! My whole problem when fighting my corner is I get emotionally involved, my heart in many cases rules my head, and this is why my debating skills are kind of poop! I get so passionate about things, this is not to say I want everyone to believe in what I do, because that would be no fun, and I'd learn nothing, but when I truely believe something, and other peoples arguments don't convince me to change my opinion, I will fight it till the end!

practicing what you preach is an old-but-good example of a shortcut to gathering understanding,

Yay! Soooo true, people so often work to a double standard, I want you to listen to MY opinion, but I refuse to listen to yours, grrr! ignorance!

like it or not, there are people who are comfortable agreeing to disagree with you,

I have to admit this is one of my worst habits. In general conversation I get bored very easily, I have a form of attention deficit, and therefore my attention can't be held for to long, so for me to keep an interest in the conversation, I will start a debate about anything! Even if I don't agree the point I'm arguing, I reckon it's all good practice for my debating skills, and I actually consider it fun. I acquired this talent when I was doing sociology at college, three hours of listening to the teacher go on, the only fun was to argue all the points he said, |I think he liked me for it, showed interest I guess, or he could of just thought I was an annoying pain in the butt

dharmagrl

on Jul 13, 2004

you add nothing to an issue or belief by becoming a rampantly closed-minded supporter of it. you in fact actively detract from the opinion of your cause by mounting an aggressive or closed-minded stance in it’s "defence".

Marvin, please take note.

Brilliant article, Mig. You got an insightful.

KellyW0498

on Jul 13, 2004

MIg..this is great advice. I was talking about this the other day with my husband but in the context of my teenagae sons and dealing with them and what problems may arise and how to handle them. Very good article.
KellyW.

Floozie

on Jul 13, 2004

I was having an argument with a friend about our theories on relationships - her view that there is 'the one' out there, and mine that there are many different ones who fit you at different times of your life. Obviously an argument based only on opinion and not fact. Not the sort of thing you can pull out a sheet of statistics to clear up. And to be honest, I wasn't even arguing - I just said my piece about how I see things and tried to leave it.

My friend however, would not drop it. I HAD to come around to her way of thinking. She - a normally intelligent woman - reduced herself to name calling in an attempt to get me to agree (I think she needed me to agree so that she could up hold her belief rather than showing me the truth, but that's another issue). When I wouldn't be moved she got so angry at me that she actually left the pub we were at and wouldn't talk to me for a week or two. When she came back, very embarrassed and sheepish, she couldn't explain why she had gotten so impassioned. It was a truly inconsequential argument and shouldn't have aroused such a response in her. But those foolish human emotions overtook her (about the only time I've seen this happen with her, so there was a bonus for me!) and her argument became ridiculous rather than salient.

Why we feel the need to change people's opinions to be more like our own is a strange phenomenon. There are somethings (racism, exploitation, etc) that i feel strongly about and think that others should think the same way as me, but a lot of things really don't matter. But we still get so upset by the idea that someone thinks differently. Learning to appreciate a diversity of opinion is something that can only help us to evolve as people and a species.

I love your articles, mig. I never know where you will direct my attention next. Nothing like keeping someone on their toes!

Suz xxx

shadesofgrey

on Jul 13, 2004

As always Mig--brilliant! I was actually talking to one of my friends about the Middle East the other day. She started talking about a well known Palestinian academic who she thought was absolutely amazing. I agreed to an extent--he was amazing when he was talking about Palestinians, but when he started talking about Jewish people, he was rather anti-semitic. I was trying to point out exactly what you said in this article. He wasn't helping anyone by spewing hatred about the other side. I personally believe that if he had simply stuck to expressing his side of the story, he would have been a lot more sucessful.

Maybe we could forward this to world leaders--I think they could use the lesson as well.

Kayles

on Jul 13, 2004

Once again Mig, you've hit me with your wise words. I'm so stunned in fact, I have no valuable comment to leave. You have said it all.

mignuna

on Jul 13, 2004

I was actually talking to some friends about people fully respecting (and possibly even believing) others beliefs just on the sole merit of their good example of practicing instead of preaching. Seeing is believing I suppose...

funnily enough, theophilis, this article was triggered by a similar conversation i had with a friend. he was referring to the local representative of the jehovahs' witnesses, who ceaselessly calls at homes in our area to offer free "spiritual" reading materials that most people don't want. (she calls at our home weekly at least. i always say "hello" and "how are you", etc, but i know she gets a lot of doors slammed in her face). i don't read her materials, and she knows, but she has such a strong and genuine motivation that she remains friendly and calm even in the face of utter hostility. it doesn't make me want to become a jehovahs witness, but it does make for a damn good example of practising what you preach. thanks for your very relevant comment.

I will have to say, however, that this is all marvelous advice and should replace the ten commandments as the code for living,

marco, i think some other stuff replaced those quite a while ago, but thanks anyway

Mig, I envy your common sense

thanks. but you shouldn't. it's not reliable. it's been known to run away right when i need it most !

Such profound wisdom. No one could possibly read that without a little enlightenment...

muggy, that's the way i felt about your "sage" article. i love the places you're going lately with your articles, mug. (i have finally "named" my blog, and i have given "her" the description you gave me ... "the spirit hag". love it !). *smooch*

Yay! Soooo true, people so often work to a double standard, I want you to listen to MY opinion, but I refuse to listen to yours, grrr! ignorance!

yay sal !. exactly. (and i adore the grrrr hehe).

Even if I don't agree the point I'm arguing, I reckon it's all good practice for my debating skills, and I actually consider it fun.

sal, you are SO like marco. it astounds me. he goes mad on me for not being "confrontational" enough hehe

Brilliant article, Mig. You got an insightful.

dharma, i know you and i feel the same about a lot of issues, in particular the right of an individual to choose what is important to them. thankyou for your comment, for your insightful rating, and for practising what you preach

Reply By: KellyW.Posted: Tuesday, July 13, 2004MIg..this is great advice. I was talking about this the other day with my husband but in the context of my teenagae sons and dealing with them

that's an interesting addition actually, kelly, in that you and your hubby were discussing using good behaviour instead of rules to lead by example for your sons. is this something you're doing with your teenage boys ?. it sounds like a pretty great parenting idea to me.

Why we feel the need to change people's opinions to be more like our own is a strange phenomenon. There are somethings (racism, exploitation, etc) that i feel strongly about and think that others should think the same way as me, but a lot of things really don't matter

exactly, suz. another great point ! thankyou !. beyond any decent human values (as you say, racism, etc), most things don't actually matter, and any "victory" can end up being an actual loss (as with your friend above).

I agreed to an extent--he was amazing when he was talking about Palestinians,

shades, i recognise that "to an extent" feeling/understanding one can get from speaking to somebody who has complete knowledge of, and commitment to, their cause/beliefs. it can be a very powerful positive affirmation for their values, (or can at least lead to a level of undertsanding of or empathy for those values), i utterly agree.

but when he started talking about Jewish people, he was rather anti-semitic. I was trying to point out exactly what you said in this article. He wasn't helping anyone by spewing hatred about the other side. I personally believe that if he had simply stuck to expressing his side of the story, he would have been a lot more sucessful.

oh shades, and from that point, any empathy you may have had gets undermined by the obviously hated-filled motivation of the statements that follow it (and so it should, but it's still damn disappointing, isn't it ?). thanks for adding such an important dimension to this. i appreciate it.

Reply By: Kayles ...Once again Mig, you've hit me with your wise words. I'm so stunned in fact, I have no valuable comment to leave. You have said it all.

kayles, you have left me short of words on a few occasions, too

. but your support of this is a meaningful comment all on it's own, and i thank you for that.

vanessa/migXX

ps: this article meant so much to me. thankyou everybody so much for adding to it in so many ways.

CS Guy

on Jul 13, 2004

Profound wisdom, Mig. As a child and young adult I never seemed to have solid opinions. I would, depending on my mood, support various positions on key topics. I eventually realized that I was not expressing my views, but rather views that were missing in a discussion.

I just couldn't listen to an argument or opinion without chiming in with a retort. And while I may argue with Abbey on Monday about a topic, on Tuesday I may be siding with her on the same topic. Slipping into someone else's philosophy was very easy for me, and I found myself seeking out as many perspectives as possible.

Now, later in life, I do have some concrete opinions and philosophies. But I still try to understand oposing views. One good reason for doing this is to know your "enemy" better, but a better reason is to remind yourself that this opinion is coming from a person. Once you apply humanity to your foe you can deal with them in a mature and compassionate manner.

Sally jacobs

on Jul 13, 2004

sal, you are SO like marco. it astounds me. he goes mad on me for not being "confrontational" enough hehe

....don't insult poor marco!

mignuna

on Jul 14, 2004

Now, later in life, I do have some concrete opinions and philosophies. But I still try to understand oposing views. One good reason for doing this is to know your "enemy" better, but a better reason is to remind yourself that this opinion is coming from a person. Once you apply humanity to your foe you can deal with them in a mature and compassionate manner.

cs guy, i am in total agreement with you (this is becoming a habit !). i wish i'd found a way to incorporate that statement of yours more completely. thankyou for adding it

don't insult poor marco!

oh sal, i wasn't. please visit !. it will stop him wanting to get me all fired up hehe.

mig XX

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