... issues and tissues with a touch of the spicy from the spirit hag ...
moral code to criminal law ?
Published on August 10, 2004 By mignuna In Personal Relationships

presently there is no legal culpability for committing adultery in our 'western' world.

the criminal code of “civilised” countries does allow for legal, monetary, or other compensation for physical or “visible damage”. this extends to take into account “emotional” consequences for a limited number of “approved” pre-existing circumstances (ie: 'victims’ of crime compensation act'; which makes certain allowances for a victims’ mental distress).

in the eyes of the law, an individual is not culpable for any emotional damage they cause, intentional or otherwise, provided they did not break any actual “law”. an action only becomes illegal when it is legislated against and a law is passed either banning or in some other way limiting it’s application to certain circumstances.

so what might happen to the world if our moral ‘code’ became law ?. what if we were bound by legal requirement to behave in a morally ‘correct’ way ?. it has been suggested that the base of a healthy society is the family unit. were adultery to be illegal, chances are it would become paradoxically at once more attractive but less widespread.

if it became a crime to have sex outside of your marriage, or with a person you know to be married regardless of your marital status, doubtless the civil libertarians would cry foul, yet mans’ insistence at exercising his every ‘right’ regardless of the damage to society will ultimately liberate nobody.

fewer ‘affairs’ would lower divorce rates, both by forcing those who view marriage as a ‘non-serious’ commitment to think again before marrying, and by preserving the marriages we already have. fewer unwanted pregnancies would occur, and in the longer term, juvenile crime as a result of broken homes would also decrease.

if facing a criminal charge, single people may think twice before they become sexually involved with somebody who is married. (and the possibility of being charged with ‘adultery’ on your permanent record can’t be very enticing either).

as long as we break no ‘official’ laws, we are free to do whatever we like to each other regardless of the consequences. should i desire, i may seduce a married man, entice him away from his family, break the hearts of his children and shatter the life of their mother.

i may watch young people grow up fatherless, rob the childrens’ grandparents of their presence in their lives, and wreak financial ruin on a man who has built a home and family. i may do all of that with complete freedom, as i’d only be morally wrong at the moment. however, should i do nothing to that same married man but bump his car at a traffic-light, i have committed a crime.

(making it illegal to devastate a family on purpose may even mean we have to jettison some of the other silly laws we have to make room for it. the way we are going, soon people will be able to sue you for clearing your throat after 10pm. but you can still go ahead a trash a bunch of lives, that’s cool).

although ‘adultery as a crime’ could never happen in this modern world, will the taste we have developed for being able to do ‘whatever we like’ unhindered ultimately be our undoing ?.

because sometimes things may not cost money, but everything we do eventually gets paid for somehow.




Comments (Page 2)
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on Aug 10, 2004
aarrrgh !. sorry lifehouse and karen. these keep popping up while i'm typing

Gid, I thought about that after I had already posted....duh!


dharma, never say duh !. you don't need to

I'd like to stick another 2 cent's worth in here


go ahead, my lovely !

my husband is a military investigator. Under military law, adultery (carnal knowledge) is illegal. Here's the problem: they have to have either a confession or proof


that's amazing, dharma. thankyou for adding this. i had no idea this was part of military law

So, if they have a scenario where they think adultery is going on, they can't really do much about it unless they catch the parties in flagrante delicto, they have photographic evidence, or if someone squeals.


now this is what i call interesting !. i guess there would have to be a pre-set type of 'acceptable evidence' just like any normal trial. wow. what a thought !. do they actually catch people, karen ?

So, in my world, adultery is already illegal.


gosh. what would happen if somebody did it, dharma ?. hmm. i will follow the link then ask questions !



Just a thought....could you imagine the difficulty in prosecuting?


lifehappens, we were just discussing that above ....

The US Army has a "No adultry" rule on the books, but the only time someone gets prosecuted is if it is in conjuntion with something else, ie: rape. The logistics in proving guilt is too difficult


karen (dharma) had provided a link in her comment above regarding this, also her comments and mine above as well. thanks for adding this lifehappens, follow dharmas' link if you get time

It would be nice if people took the vow (PROMISE) they made at marriage as seriously as other oaths, but I doubt that could ever happen


it is with a heavy heart that i agree with you, lifehappens . thankyou so much for your input

PS Several states/counties/cities do have the law on the books, but just like the "no shooting someone in their underwear" rules, it's never enforced


that's fascinating. do you know which they are ?. thanks again !


vanessa/mig XX
on Aug 10, 2004
Just a thought, should the government be able to give people tax breaks for being married, then? Lets face it, the government has been, and always will be, involved in marriage. Although, I do disagree with the gov't disallowing same sex marriages


the politcal machine, i think that the government will always be involved in marriage. our australian tax system is probably very different than yours, yet i do think any way it can be made easier for people to stay married should be made available. (ie: i agree with government-funded childcare, although i am not a parent).



Oh, I didn't take the argument personally, mig. I thought it was a very good piece, just not one I agree with (hehe). But don't feel too bad, there's a lot I don't agree with.


i was pretty sure you didn't, gideon, but i wanted to make certain. thankyou for your reassurance

The reason I threw up the reproductive rights issue is that this is a law that does have to do with the lifestyle of certain individuals. There are individuals in "swinging" relationships, polyamorous relationships, etc, that are entirely consensual that would be affected by blanket legislation such as this


this is another great point !. this would introduce a "sexual' form of the pre-nup or something ?. there would have to be a release clause signed by the spouses, i guess. tricky !

While these sort of relationships "aren't my bag, baby" (in best Austin Powers voice),


well, i didn't think they were hehe

There is also the matter of the government legislating what goes on in the privacy of one's home. Numerous violations of individual rights, such as the one I cited, could follow if this legislative precedent was set.


yep. as i just said, we have now introduced the idea of the 'sexual pre-nup', with both spouses agreeing to this, or signing a legal 'release' after marriage. ohhhhh.

Also of note: In many New England states (New Hampshire being one), adultery actually IS illegal. It doesn't seem to have made a significant change in the morality of the communities


thanks for bringing this up gideon. i had asked earlier if anybody knew the US states that had such a law ?.

nope. But then I think the entire tax structure needs major overhaul anyway. Such is the cross I must bear for my libertarian views...lol


as i mentioned to the political machine earlier in this huge comment, gideon, being australian clouds me on this one, but i did metion this: ... i do think any way it can be made easier for people to stay married should be made available. (ie: i agree with government-funded childcare, although i am not a parent).


thanks again


vanessa/mig XX"
on Aug 10, 2004
I'm Army too, so it's illegal for us and that's fine by me, especially after seeing the horrendous ways that spouses abuse their marriages during deployments. What kind of assclown runs around all over the place on their husbands/wives, while their spouse faces mortar attacks or combat on a daily basis?

Lack of punishment gives license to frivolous cheating. Yes, there are mature, rational adults, but there are also people out there who'd F*&# their partner over to screw a wet hole in the ground if they thought they could get away with it. It's illegal for us, and that's how I like it.

Now if they'd just make it punishable by stoning instead of lousy article 15s.......
I know it's primitive and non pc, but it's me.
on Aug 10, 2004

do they actually catch people, karen ?


Yes, but mostly because people squeal.  They're ridden with guilt at what they did and scared shitless because they're under investigation - add to that my husband's persuasive interview techniques and you have the perfect scenario for a confession.  I don't think I've even heard of a case where people got caught red handed (or bare-assed, whichever way you want to look at it).  Here's an example:  the last carnal knowledge case Dave investigated involved 2 nights of surveillance.  The first night he sat on the street outside the subjects house to watch the 'boyfriend' go in after the husband had gone to work.  Sat there all night, watched all the lights in the house go off....and watched the b/f leave at 5am, shortly before the husband came home.  The second night, he watched the same thing, but was waiting outside the front door for the b/f when he left.  He took him back to the station, interviewed him (his partner interviewed the woman involved)...and the both of them confessed.  Done deal. 


I'm with Nobody-Special, I'm glad that it's illegal.  I wish I could show you the things that go on on a military installation shortly after a mass deployment - it'd make your hair curl.

on Aug 10, 2004
Dharmagrl: We have a huge deployment from my base right now - are you telling me there's lots of kinky, juicy gossip I'm missing out on?
on Aug 10, 2004
The truth is out there.....Find it Scully.
on Aug 10, 2004
Recently had a gate guard sexually harrass my wife repeatedly at gate because he thought I was away. Started with small flirt, and even though she made it clear she wasn't interested, it got worse to the point that the #&*@$@%% @$$Clown kissed her hand when he gave her id card back......
I started by making a somewhat pointed phone call at 2 in the morning and went from there. Idiot. Don't fool around with your name on your shirt and in the phonebook....especially if you're married. I'd call him more names, but I don't want to insult warm piles of shit by associating them him.
Also don't F@*( with a guy with a two and a half ton, old school mustang when your job involves standing in the middle of the street. Meh.
on Aug 10, 2004

Idiot


Yep.


Don't fool around with your name on your shirt and in the phonebook....especially if you're married


Yep again.  'Dont shit in your own backyard'. 


 

on Aug 10, 2004
Wow. So there are things going on that would be of interest . . . hmmm . . . My neighbors all sit in their garages and talk all day (well, the evil "Thumbsucker" sucks her thumb, but that's beside the point). I'll bet they have some interesting stories. Wonder if I should attempt to infiltrate their group?
on Aug 10, 2004

My neighbors all sit in their garages and talk all day (well, the evil "Thumbsucker" sucks her thumb, but that's beside the point). I'll bet they have some interesting stories. Wonder if I should attempt to infiltrate their group?


NO NO NO!!!   I have members of the same clan living in my neighborhood!!!  Under no circumstances approach them!  They're evil, pure evil, and they will exploit you and your circumstance for their own sadistic pleasure!  Stay away, for your own safety, stay away!

on Aug 10, 2004
They attempted to initiate me into their group when we first moved here . . . several beers later I was enjoying their company. It only took a few days for me to figure out that they were bad news, though. I agree . . .
They're evil, pure evil, and they will exploit you and your circumstance for their own sadistic pleasure!




I like being inside my house with my children and personal belongings that I have purchased that I like, thank you very much. I have no desire to sit in my garage all day while my kids dump flour all over the furniture. Then again, that's just me.
on Aug 10, 2004

there already are cultures in which this is the case.  sharia (islamic law) forbids adultery as does the torah, with stoning being the presecribed penalty.

it could revive dylan's 'rainy day woman 12 & 35'

dharma wasnt the muslm cleric at guantanamo who was arrested initially on suspicion of spying--i think his last name is yee--ultimately convicted of adultery and *shudder* downloading porn?  i think hes been exonerated of all the other charges and isnt actually being punished for those last two.

on Aug 10, 2004
and then there's the sticky problem of how to deal with teenagery
on Aug 11, 2004
Mig, none of this answer is directed at you - just for clarification. It's all directed at anyone who thinks it might apply to them and I write it for the sake of stirring up the conversation

There is no such thing as a moral code that is enforced at gun point. You cannot legislate morality because morality is a product of thought, not action.

And Dharma, regarding adultery being illegal in the military, I'm 99% sure that adultery falls under article 134 which is just a generic catch all for things that bring discredit to the military. It has nothing to do with adultery specifically. Carnal knowledge has to do with having sex with people that aren't old enough (according to the government), not adultery. It actually says so right there in the link you posted.

Ok, that being said, I'm going to be the odd man out. (Surprise)

What would happen if your significant other had sex with someone else? *gasp*

Would it tear down your self esteem? Then I submit you never had any.
Would it make you angry? You're angry because someone you love had a good time? No, you're angry because they didn't have it with you. That they gave away a part of themselves that you believed you owned.

What is with the overwhelming desire on some people's parts to possess other people?

Are any of you reacting to that? Better think carefully first. If you want to control, IN ANY WAY AT ALL, what life experiences someone you love is having, is that not a form of possession?

Do you really want the sum of your collective relationships to boil down to fear because that's all this is really about. Fear of not being loved, not being good enough, or maybe of being alone. This isn't about a significant other having sex - it's about your significant self losing its esteem, and no one is responsible for what you think about yourself but you.
on Aug 11, 2004

Would it make you angry? You're angry because someone you love had a good time? No, you're angry because they didn't have it with you. That they gave away a part of themselves that you believed you owned.


just earned yourself an insightful from me mr razor.   


i wasnt taking this as seriously as perhaps i should have or i would have asked similar questions.  from the time i was 17, id realized the futility of jealousy and possessiveness and have never stopped considering them an impediment to rather than components of love.  i also know how few people share my opinion and seem unable to grasp what to me seems so obvious.

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